Positive Peace with Chenai Kadungure

What is "positive peace" and how do we achieve it? Joe asks Chenai Kadungure, a Rotary Peace Fellow from Zimbabwe, now living in Toronto, and a founding member of the Rotary Club of Global Partners in Peace.

Transcript

Peter Tonge: 0:00

Music. Welcome to this episode of Talking Rotary. I'm Peter Tonge, and I'm a member of the Rotary Club of Winnipeg. CharlesWood,

Mandy Kwasnica: 0:26

and I am Mandy Kwasnica, past president and also a member of the Rotary Club of Winnipeg. Charles Wood, we are so happy you have joined us. Peter and I are so excited for this new podcast and thankful to our many listeners. Let's start talking rotary you

joe solway: 1:06

Hi. I'm Joe solry from the Bowmanville Rotary Club, filling in once again for Peter Tonge as he serves as governor for district 5550, and my guest today is Chennai. Kadungre. She was born in Zimbabwe, schooled in South Africa and then as a Rotary Peace fellow in the US, and was a founding member of the Rotary Club of global partners in peace. Chennai. Lives in Toronto, where she's the executive director of the black physicians association of Ontario, and she is here to talk about her life, her rotary experience, and how a concept known as positive peace can help build a better world. Ha, tonight, welcome to Talking Rotary.

Chenai Kadungare: 1:47

Hi, Joe, thanks for having me

joe solway: 1:49

on your LinkedIn profile. You describe yourself as and I'm going to quote pan Africanist equity champion. What does that mean?

Chenai Kadungare: 2:00

I Well, firstly, Pan Africa missed is just that. I think that African countries are, you know, we're basically just one family, right in terms of, you know, whether it's colonial history, all these different things that have set us apart and have created intense tribalism. I do think pan Africanism, where we're just like one unit, that's where our power is, a unified Africa, and that's including those who are, you know, descendants of slaves in the Caribbean and North America and the like. And the equity aspect is just about, you know, I believe that every person on earth deserves to have best resources to make their best choices and have better outcomes like I do. I do think that right now, there are a lot of people who have not and might never have in future, unless there's some kind of support. And to me, that's where equity sits. That's a

joe solway: 3:04

huge challenge. How do you even begin doing something like that? Or, I mean, do you just take it one teeny step at a time? Or do you keep a huge goal in mind?

Chenai Kadungare: 3:15

For me, it's well, in my life, it's been basically one sector at a time, right? Because at this point now, I've worked in employment equity, educational equity. Now I'm in health equity, you know. So you're kind of, you are trying to reconcile different spaces by offering solutions where possible, and sometimes it's about helping people really get scrappy with things right to to not wait till there's a huge amount of resources, but be able to do a lot with little. So that's been a lot of equity work I've done over the years. As I said in the intro, your your family, you grew up in Zimbabwe, and your family was pretty politically aware and connected. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you think that's shaped your your view of the world. So my my father's older brother was a little was a liberational elite liberation war hero in Zimbabwe. He was one of the six men that brought independence to Zimbabwe when basically, Rhodesia transitioned to becoming Zimbabwe, and my father worked in government, used to write speeches for Robert Mugabe back in the day, and actually founded certain things. 21st February. There was a youth leadership sort of gave that we celebrate in Zimbabwe to this day, 21st February movement that was a brain child of my father's. So we are family that has liberation in our blood. So I always say, you know, the path chose me. I didn't choose the path. Wonderful. That's That's fantastic. You were an interactor in high school, so I guess you started your rotary career very early. How did that come about? And can you describe what that meant, you know, to be an interactor in a high school in Zimbabwe, yeah. Yeah, I would say I didn't have too many extra curriculars that were service facing prior. So in lower six in Zimbabwe, which I think here they call grade 11, I I basically decided to join inter because, you know, it was like, it was something that's everyone else was doing. They're going to different places. Some people were going to, you know, like old people's homes, some people were at the hospitals. And, you know, the community I chose was a place called Saint. It was like st Catherine's. It was like a school for children with developmental disabilities. And that's where I did my essentially, what was my placement, and that's when I encountered service about self. And obviously, love that concept, and it stuck with me. What did you learn from those kids that you worked with in terms of life? Definitely, that you don't need to sweat the small stuff. I think there's a certain sense where, but then what just matters is what matters everyone else, human connection, right? And so you could, you could see that difference, that like when you arrived, there was a change in demeanor and an excitement and engagement and affection and all these things. And so for me, it was just understanding that you know you can, you can be that for someone, you could be the hands and feet of love for other people. Nice. So

joe solway: 6:24

I'm going to jump ahead. You went to University of Cape Town in South Africa, beautiful place, at least from the pictures that I see. You got a bachelor's degree in media, sociology and Gender Studies, that's right, yes. And then a master's in diversity studies, and you also were working in South Africa for a while. It just gets back to the pan Africanism. What was it like, you know, you're a Zimbabwean. We, you know, we like to think, oh, yeah, she's in South Africa. That's the same place, but, but it wasn't, was it? I mean, can you talk about, you know, the differences, and what it was like as a Zimbabwean living next door in South Africa, but maybe, you know, a cultural divide away, you talk about that. Yeah, I definitely had a bit of a culture shock when I first moved because in Zimbabwe, because we, we kind of have, we have two dominant tribes. But at the same time, when I was growing up, I went to a school that was a bit more, almost like international, right? There's students from everywhere. It just was never really a part of conversation about, like, where are you from? It was just to me, it was like, we're all here, so we're from here, we're all in the same place. It's only later on in life I found out that a lot of my peers were like, from, you know, someone's from Zambia, someone's from, like, Italy, someone's from it didn't factor into friendships I had in school. So by the time I went to South Africa, I realized that, you know, when people ask me, where are you from? And I said, Zimbabwe, it meant something, because a lot of them just never spoke to me ever again. And that's when I started learning about, you know, essentially, what is xenophobia and more about, like, how tribalism can be, because they are already about, you know, 1314, tribes in South Africa, and Shana was just not going to be like a welcome one, a welcome addition. And what did that mean for your life? I mean, you were, how old were you? You weren't, you know, you weren't like, you know, an old person who died lots of stuff, roll off your back. You know, you're a young woman and you're making your way in the room. What was that like for you to feel like an outsider? I

Chenai Kadungare: 8:30

think it was just one of those things where, I mean, I had, I had, at small points in my life, felt like an outsider because of my race and maybe my, you know, partial social awkwardness later on that I found out was, you know, essentially ADHD. But I do think that that awkwardness was more of just exclusion. And if you think about inclusion, is about everyone wants to be able to be at the party and participate. And so for me, it's easy for me to then feel that FOMO, to really understand that, oh, you know, I've been in a class for four years with this person. They don't want to know me, even though we're going to be taking the same classes and things because of where I'm from, you know? So it really, yeah, it really stuck out to me. But I know that, you know, apartheid history is also really intense, and that shaped people in different ways, and so I tried to not take it as personally, and just made friends with people who around me. So in university, a lot of my friends were international people, people who were like, you know, study abroad students from the US, fellow Zimbabweans. You know, whole lot of Zimbabweans that I knew who came to school and came to an odd spend time with them as well, and then maybe the odd sprinkle of like faculty and things like that I befriended, but I realized right then that okay, my circle was not going to be as big as out of like to be.

joe solway: 9:57

And you eventually. Made your way to the States. In 2016 you went on a peace fellowship to study international development. Is that correct? Global Studies, global studies with certification in international development. Okay? You were at Duke and then you were at University of North Carolina, both of those places, by the way. As an aside, if you're a basketball fan, they're like the great basketball schools. So NCAA,

Unknown: 10:29

they're really big. So you, you, you were at the you went to these schools on a rotary fellowship, a scholarship, essentially. How did that happen? You had, there's a Rotary Connection there? Isn't there? Yes. So I, obviously, I wasn't actually a Rotarian at that time, and I think that was like my late 20s, going into my 30s, and I

Chenai Kadungare: 10:51

my aunt, that's what my aunt sent me, a link about the scholarship and fellowship. I read it, and I said to her, this is they're looking for like exceptional people. I don't think, I don't think that's me. And that's when she said, Never self reject. Make sure that they say no. And so when I decided to apply, there's a section where now a club needs to sponsor you. And in the region I'm in, I mean, in SADC, there are not a lot of clubs that know about this fellowship. None other clubs that even know the first thing about being able to sponsor not a lot of clubs with very big sort of foundation understanding and and so yeah, I learned that the hard way. I remember keeping a tally, and I spoke to 22 different clubs, until I finally, wait a second, so you went to all these clubs in South Africa. Were they South Africa clubs. It was a mix. It'll be like, I'll be emailing different clubs. I'd find, yeah,

Unknown: 11:47

the list of clubs, the clubs in South Africa, but wasn't necessarily finding content about, you know, clubs that had this service of sponsoring, because they'd all respond and say, sounds. We know about that thing, but we don't do that. We don't sponsor and stuff like that. So this is like looking for a job. I mean, looking trying to get this was like looking for a job, and then you finally hit on a woman from a club in Pretoria. Tell me that story. Yes,

Chenai Kadungare: 12:15

the amazing faith. Bam. Shout out to faith if you're listening to this. So I actually got to a point where I Googled Rotary Peace Fellowship, South Africa, Rotary Club was there's some keyword that eventually worked. And I found articles from, I think then it was Romi Brahma, who they had sponsored. And so the articles about the person they sponsored helped me figure out which club knows what's going on. So when I finally got a hold of faith, it was the 11th hour. I'm telling you, it was like, you know, when it's like, the deadline is less than two weeks away, or something crazy like that, or more like, I guess, like, maybe something like a month away, because I still had to do things like my GMAT and all of that to go to six. It was, it was chaos, but, but then she met with me. I like, I went to station, COVID train station, Victoria, she was amazing. And she said, Okay, we're gonna have to get to work, and the rest is history. Like I was amazed that they were so well versed in the fellowship that when I finally got my interview, I had a panel that had like, a former ambassador South Africa, Ambassador to, I think was like Turkey and different countries, a former Peace fellow. She had gone to Chula, like, a few years before, and had passed district governor. So it was like, I was like, this is serious business. And so I was just so honored that they sponsored me, and they they their family ever since, was it peace that you were that was driving you, or was it just you wanted to go to some place new. I always had the, like, I said, the International Affairs kind of thing that I wanted to pivot into. And I had reached a glass ceiling. What, what seemed like a glass ceiling in Mexico, South Africa. And something in me just said, Okay, I think now I need to get a change of scenery. And I, you know, I decided I thought, you know, North America would be good. And knowing that my aunt was near Duke UNC the same aunt who sent the link was in Asheville at the time. Okay, yeah, so that was the kind of push for there, because I obviously had a choice between, I think, about five universities at the time, right? Because there was, like, University of Queensland in Australia. There was International Christian University in Japan, University of Bradford in England, and Duke UNC. So

joe solway: 14:31

like to walk through that door at Duke the first day,

Chenai Kadungare: 14:35

it was what UNC was my home campus. We just we did courses at both. Got told what is like your home? Honestly, it's it was surreal, especially because I read the profiles of other people, my cohort, and again, I was like, What am I doing here? I

joe solway: 14:55

was like, how did I make it here? We all kind of feel that way, don't we? Sometimes. Yes, oh yeah, the imposter syndrome phase is always, yeah, the imposter that's it, the imposter syndrome. So

Rotary Ad: 15:08

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joe solway: 15:37

so you you get a degree in in Global Studies. Sorry, I wrote international development, and you end up coming to Canada in 2018 and you, you, you do a fair amount of interviewing. And I read something that you told Canadian immigrant magazine, which is a fine publication that it was the most difficult part of your life after you moved to Canada. How come what was going on? What made it so difficult?

Chenai Kadungare: 16:12

I think because I had gotten such excellent experience in the US and I had reached a point where I was literally developing faculty at UNC, you know, like it just to me, I thought, you know, I mean, I'm in the same region, surely, it's like, you know, if you're moving to the next country, it's like people understand, you know, the brands and things like that, and know that you can't fake some of this stuff. And you know, there was just really minimal trust, it seemed of not just my prior experience, but also just some kind of Stranger Danger feeling seemed like. So, yeah, just in terms of finding work, finding, you know, networks, all these things, was a lot harder than I thought it would have been. So that that year was definitely one of the arms of my life. All happening on the backdrop of the burnout post post graduate as well, right? So it's like you're not even energized enough for the battle. Was it like for your confidence, your your ego and your sense of self? You lose it a bit, you know? Because I remember, I was staying with my cousin at the time, and I remember she said to me, she's like, I think you might be depressed, you know, where it's like, literally, someone is just seeing like, the light go from you. My people who know me know that I'm always like, animated and energetic and excited to smile on your face. Ever seen you with a smile on your face? There you go. But at that time, I was literally doing like, some of the most, honestly, I call it traumatic minimum wage work, where it's like, you basically have people telling you in very colorful language where to go every day. You know, because it was like the door to door fundraising, which already creeped me out. I'm like, I'm gonna not this is my first time, like living so far away from home, but now also having to knock on strangers doors looking as I do,

joe solway: 18:02

asking, looking as you do.

Chenai Kadungare: 18:06

Well, it's, I mean, I know that a lot of people might not necessarily feel comfortable about like a black woman knocking on their door asking for money for a charity that is, you know, that kind of set up to me was just very cringy in general, because I just okay, never yeah and and. And there were times literally, was like, Yeah. People kind of like, swear at you and things like that. And so I was working what pretty much was seven days a week, because of the rules that they have at some of like the call centers. So when you're doing two minimum wage jobs, is what I was doing, you'd end up having to work seven days a weekend. And what was the turning point? You eventually got some good work that that took advantage of your view of the world, I guess, as a global citizen, yeah. What happened? What was the turning point? Puso International, honestly, I got to a point where I was like, you know, I really tried to make it work. Here, you sure, was what international is, a volunteer service organization. It's almost like, I feel like it's a, it's a, it's a mini How does it almost like Peace Corps for a man? Okay, the best way of, right? And so, you know, I figured I might as well volunteer, keep me a bit in my space, but at the same time also not having to worry about, like, paying bills and things like that, because it was just sucking my soul. When they say soul sucking, that's, I really felt for the first time what that really means and so, and a lot of people were saying, Are you crazy to go and volunteer when you you need to be like, You need to be here and working and things like that. But I just, I just knew somehow that that was going to be better for me, especially because I was going to be volunteering in Malawi, which is quite close to home, right? Um, I was an 11 hour drive away from Zimbabwe, so I was like, you know. I think I need to wow bullet my wounds, and then come back feeling a little bit more re energized to do it. And it was the best thing I could have possibly done for myself. Honestly, yeah, and you were in, you got a job with care, sorry, care Canada. Yes, I was, I was doing. It was like, one of those placements, was like, Kusu and kuso and care had partnered on something called the Southern African nutrition initiative, and so I was responsible for the HIV nutrition portion of it, working with the smaller NGOs partnered with care Malawi for what was supposed to be six months, but then they asked me to extend, and then I ended up doing a year. And it was perfect, because I came back here in time for the pandemic.

joe solway: 20:44

And you were with the Exec. You were the executive director by that time, I guess, of the black physicians association of Ontario. Is that no start with them? Yes. I came back in 2020, yeah. And so first I was at skills for Change Working,

Chenai Kadungare: 21:04

and again, that work was so aligned after what I had been through. You know, sometimes you understand skills for change is an urban organization working with youth. Is that right? It's, yeah, no, that's black youth success. Skills for change is a settlement agency. They're sort of helping all the sort of like newcomers to Canada immigrants being able to settle, find work, all those things. So I was overseeing two employment Ontario branches when I started that role. And again, I say it's only after doing some of the care work that I moved from zero interviews in 2018 to an average of about 13 interviews a month in 20. Tell me about the black physicians association of Ontario. What is it and why is it necessary? Oh, yeah, so I think I always say our name is deceptive, because people always assume it means we're just an association and we exist only for you know, our members who are physicians. But the best way to say is we are two arms. We help everyone who is looking at pre pre med to essentially post me, like retired physicians. We have networking, wraparound support wellness stuff, like accredited events, like everything under the sun, to support that side of it. And then on the community end, we do our, well, yes, our accredited trainings help on the community end as well. But we do a lot of health literacy work, and currently we're actually working on a patient self advocacy manual because of our partnership with Ontario health on something called the Black health plan. So there's, there's a lot of work around there, but we work with a lot of sort of, like racialized communities, I would say. So whether we're doing, like a Filipino breast cancer kind of session. We were working with Tamil physicians on something. It's it's a big mix, but we just want to have sort of like health equities in essence, right? So that's it. That's our core. Are there better health outcomes for black community members who have black physicians? Is that something better for me? Yes, yes. So the phrase that they use in America has racial concordance, but I also say it's more like cultural concordance, because it's not like people who look the same always understand each other. And so I think what they saw is, when your caregiver is black, there is, I mean, so just a simple example, if you're seeing someone like a therapist, and there is that translation bit, sometimes the patient is literally paying more money just to explain a cultural context as an example. So there is some level of like labor in the interpretation and translation. But when you have someone who understands what you're talking about, it's like, that's it. Like, you don't say, oh, you know. And then I had my lobola in this, and now you don't have to have a whole conversation of what is a lobola. So I think that's what it is there is. So there's an efficiency to it, but there's also probably just the ease of less translation and less making of mistakes, right? Like sometimes you learn that the other cultures where you're not allowed to ask certain questions, are you going to know? Sure, and during the pandemic, I remember there were a number of people, I guess, the Canadian, North American black communities, people like LeBron James and other you know, black celebrities were became advocates to get the vaccine, the COVID vaccine. How did you see that play out here? I mean, influence. There are people who are influencers, and there is some impact to you know what they say, and when you see the like, when you understand where the influence sits in communities, sometimes you have to actually leverage that if you want to get something done. And what we found when we were trying to work with vaccine hesitant. And community in the black community, a lot of it was about, you know, where are the spaces where they're getting their information about health, and what are their concerns? Quite a few weren't going to accept the vaccine unless they were getting it from someone who looked like them as an example, right? And so even when I was still at skills for change, by the way, when we were recruiting for the vaccine clinics, we also had to make sure that it's like, hey, for certain communities, let's have people who actually look like them. Because there is a thing about, if you're a diverse community and you're just gonna have like, one race of people work with you, the trust is just there's a bigger gap on the trust already, a mistrust in health anyway, with a lot of people in the black community with the history, you know. So, yeah, I'm sure if I was, Well, man, I can't be sure, but, but I can imagine being, you know, a black person with who had questions or anxieties, walking into an office or a clinic and seeing a black doctor would really put me far more at ease

Peter Tonge: 25:59

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Unknown: 26:25

up.

joe solway: 26:27

So tell me about I want to talk a little bit more about Rotary. We haven't talked much about Rotary, and this is called Talking Rotary. So let's talk about, you're a founding member of a club that not a lot of people know about. Maybe they do, but

Chenai Kadungare: 26:46

where I am not that many know about it, you're a founding member, a founding member of the Rotary Club of global partners in peace. Can you describe that club, how it got started, and the work it does, and who's in it? Yes, my friend and fellow Duke UNC peace fellow, she was at Duke Linda low. She's our founding president. She had the idea that, you know, we had, we had all kind of talked about how we wanted to still stay really connected with Rotary when the when the Peace Fellowship was over, and because they had already been so many great learnings and so many similarities in the in the work we were doing, especially around things like the SDGs, we wanted a place where we'd be able to connect and do what Rotarians do, but we didn't want to do it with the traditional model of Rotary, which is meeting every week because of people's availabilities. And again, we're scattered all over the world, and with global careers, people are like on the go all the time. So the model that spoke to us was that of an E club model. And so we started out with something like 23 members, because Linda and I were thinking about all the different people we had chatted to who were peace fellow alumni or friends of rotary in some way when it comes to peace, peace scholarship and so our club, yeah, was essentially what rotary called the first peace fellow club as well. So I thought, I thought it was great, because, again, we learned so much during the fellowship that does not necessarily translate in our everyday work. But you can also lose steam if you don't have fellow community who understand, you know, some of that, and we could, we could actually strategize together around certain global issues that that are aren't addressed and should be. So we meet two Saturdays a month, and we are in almost every continent. I think the only one we don't really have is Australia, and not yet, you will. I'm sure it's the time zone thing. So it's a bit tough, because we do have a lot of friends in Australia who are in our cohort, but I think the time zone is a challenge for them as well as, you know, obviously, like Antarctica, and I feel like I've forgotten one other continent, but we have people scattered all over and so one of the other things that our club does is we do quarterly briefings that allow everyone else in the rotary community to come and hear about what's happening in certain regions. So our March briefing, which is first week of March, it's going to be on Syria, and updates on what's happening there. Our first one was actually on

joe solway: 29:24

Israel Gaza. The second one was Ukraine, and our third one was on elections, because last year was one of the biggest years for elections around the world. I was reading, and it's either this month's or last month's, about rotary as election observers in Nigeria, which was super interesting. You know, I would imagine that's quite a challenge. So, the the club you, you do work with working on mediation skills, is that right? Yes, so, so that's the other piece I forgot to mention. So, Linda, I.

Chenai Kadungare: 30:00

Founded our it basically was like a our cohorts, sort of contribution that came when we were still in in North Carolina. The history of that is there was a group called the leaders for political dialog, LPD, and that came after the US elections in 2016 when there was a lot of polarization on campus. And, you know, Linda had the smart idea that, hey, we already learning about how to do some of these things, how to mediate some of these conversations. You know, let's actually create something. And so I would say the core group was like, Linda Patrick, we were, I'm thinking, oh gosh, I need to remember the other names. But basically a lot of people who are in our in our club now were sort of like CO facilitators and trainers and things like that in in that group. And we basically have continued that service and have used it as a way to fundraise for a club since our club has some members who have to be sponsored, who can't afford the sort of like 200 and whatever odd us a year to be a Rotarian. And I must say, our club was sponsored by the North Carolina

joe solway: 31:19

district, so that's also one of the, like, nice rotary pieces to it, we remain still so connected to where we did our peace fellowships. So there are, and you mentioned a couple of them. There are major wars happening that get a lot of profile, a number of them that probably don't that, yeah, very obvious. Sometimes you read about them, and they just don't make you know the news, at least here. How can a club like yours or even Rotary, with our resources, make a difference in

Chenai Kadungare: 31:56

ending some of these world conflicts or making sure they don't happen? Like, is it a little itty bitty thing, or is it spreading the word? Like, how do we do that? Because that seems to me, that's a huge challenge. I will always maintain rotary is one of the world's best kept secrets, honestly in a lot of countries in the Global South, I will say that, like, there are some rotary clubs that are doing more than the government does sometimes, you know. So I think our impact and reach is is astounding. And I always brag on the fact that we were actually the rotary were, were the ones who helped develop the United Nations Charter, you know. So the fact that the world is organizing itself around, you know, concepts of what was, what created us, essentially, is something that I always want to, like push, you know, whether it's International Peace Day and all of that, but on a broader like, in a more like, long term scale, I do think the four way test is something we need to reflect on, ponder and on as leaders. Because I do think that a lot of people just get the four way test wrong, and that is something that, as an apolitical a religious group, Rotary, is offering something to peace that nothing else in the world can right now, honestly, so number one, or the four way test, I don't want to sound like I'm being I'm being blasphemous, but that, but that, number one, is it the truth? It's really subjective, isn't it? I mean, you know, like you and I might be, might be, you know, in conflict over something, and I have a truth, and you have a truth. So how do we, you know? How do we get there, given the fact that you know, your truth might be different than mine, I don't know. These are, these are huge questions. All right, you know, how do you deal with that? For the first is, I would maintain there is such a thing as Subjective Truth, right? So if it's, if it's an individual's truth, then that's a Subjective Truth, because, again, it's like you're discussing something that might not necessarily impact everyone. And I think when we are looking at the four way test idea of truth, we are trying to look at the objective facts of the matter. And more often than not, you're probably not going to click Yes on that. For a lot of these things, there'll be some kind of backstory that only applies to a certain context or a certain time or so, you know. So I think there is a lot of that, and we've seen a lot of that happen even within the law, right? The law is able to create frameworks of like, you know, this is not a the universal truth of this thing. We can't call it that. So here are the parameters of what we're calling truth in this case. And so I think we can do that with a lot of the work we do as Rotarians. I don't think we necessarily have to take a side when we're mediating. As an example, if you're coming as a mediator, a whole part of your role is not picking aside. So even if you have a personal truth, you are saying you're willing to suspend it for the good of you know, overall peace and all the other things right, fostering goodwill, better understanding. Make sure there's fairness to all concerned. Because even on a business contract. Know that, okay, that person is going to get more of a deal than the other person. But if I'm a mediator leader, and I'm trying to make sure everyone gets like, equal amount of value, I'm actually making a choice to say, you know, there's some kind of balancing act there. So I think if we did more of that, which is, to me, at the heart of it is empathy. That's what I think is on the backdrop, backdrop. It's interesting. Empathy. Empathy is really hard, isn't it? I mean, because it's really hard to say, you know, to to jump from sympathy to empathy. Well, sympathy, sympathy doesn't even exist. Sometimes, though, that's, I think that's the thing we have to we have to also be like, if I don't have any sympathy in this situation, what's actually happening with me, that's, I think that's one of the things

joe solway: 35:46

that is hard, like the self awareness, to actually own that, like, I have no, I have zero emotion about this thing, that you're writing a book about self actualization. I have trouble saying that you tell me about that book you're writing.

Chenai Kadungare: 36:01

Well, I would say the, well, the title is paid on purpose, and it's and it's a, basically a guide for someone who wants to be able to find their purpose and monetize it. But the backdrop of that is looking at the concept of self actualization. The layperson will ask, like, what is self actualization? I think the best, the best way to describe it, is you being your highest self. So you being your best self with your best resources, again, like I say to what I mentioned about my vision earlier, right? Like, if, if you have the best things applicable to you, the best knowledge, the best resources, the best mentors, and everything else, you are equipped to have better outcomes. I'm going to talk rotary again. How is rotary played into your own self actualization? I I know i think it has in mine, certainly. How is it playing in out in yours? I would say, I mean, just that service above self concept that, you know, I encountered at the beginning. I think that made me think about career pathways. I was looking at my motivations and drivers for doing things. A lot of it just came back to that to say, if there isn't an aspect of service and I'm just either being self serving or other exploitative that was going to be a problem for me. So it gave me a framework for how I decide what I want to do. And that's that's why, to me, this way, the equity actually comes in making sure that there's meaningful inclusion for everyone. You're more than a pan Africanist. You're

joe solway: 37:40

pan globalist, I think one last question, activity, we only have a couple of minutes left. So last question, you talk about a term called positive peace. What is that

Chenai Kadungare: 37:54

most people think when they're talking about peace, just mean negative peace, like we're not shooting each other, we're not killing each other. But actual peace, positive peace, is one way everyone in the world is actualized right now they you know, the debate is, 10 to 15% of the world are actualized, right? And a large part of that is because so much of the world is just dealing with bread and butter issues. They're just trying to survive. And so positive peace is where everyone is at that point of your highest self, you are you are welcome fully in your community. You are seen, you are heard, you are celebrated. That is positive peace.

joe solway: 38:33

And so we're working to that wonderful kind of something we can all do in Rotary. I think it's a big part of our why, yeah, well, tonight you are, you're doing unbelievable work. It's wonderful. You know, you and I met on a full disclosure to you and I met when Jennifer Jones came to Toronto, and we were both part of her tour, looking after her here, making sure that, you know, we that she got the most out of it, and Toronto got the most out of her. So it's been, it's been great to get to know you and I thank you very much for for being a guest on talking Rotary, and good luck with your book and all your work. Thank you so much. And I'll talk rotary any day. So yeah, well, we'll continue that. All Right. Bye, now. Bye. Bye. Thanks. You.

Unknown: 39:40

Music.

Mandy Kwasnica: 39:45

Thank you so much for joining us on another great episode of talking Rotary. We would love to hear from you. Please send us your comments and story ideas, and you can share with us easily by sending us an email at feedback at talking rotary.org, you. Let's keep talking. Rotary you.